What I want to know is why, when that man asked your husband whether you were wearing a bra, your husband didn’t throw him the fuck out of your house. I’m so glad I don’t consume any “content” about cosmetic surgery, etc. I have read only one article, and it’s the best thing I have ever read on the topic, and after reading it no sane woman should want to read anything else about it ever again.
Martha! This article is awesome! I only just read the first several paragraphs but now I want to sit with it and take my time. Thank you for sharing it and it is already helping.
Ilona Goanos: I hope to remain on the right of propriety when I say, the Pictures of you on this platform show an engaging, pleasant woman. You have no reason to worry about yours looks at all.
In 53 years of marriage (55 together with Nancy), I am blessed with a woman of deep goodness, whom I trust implicitly, and whose beauty captivates me (makeup or no makeup and in any of her chosen clothes) like when we first met.
Nancy is still that full personality of the fragrant breath of fresh air that blew miraculously into my life, freeing me 55 years ago. Nature did not make me to be a single man.
As my wife has aged with me, she remains my whole Heart and Love, the more beautiful for her life's experiences.
If a man had made the disgusting, belittling physical remark your then-husband had reported, the one hearing about it would not have been my innocent Nancy, but his (the erstwhile "friend's) ears would be ringing from my admonishment of my well-loved wife's dignity and right to privacy. He would not have made the same mistake twice!
At all stages of life, a girl, a young woman, a maturing woman, a fertile woman, a woman going through cycles, a woman during and after changes, an older woman, and a quite aged woman -- A girl, a woman is a wondrous Work of Nature who is sovereign in her own Agency and Freedom, who does not have to answer to anyone about her choices in clothes or how she looks.
I am truly sorry you weren't surrounded by positive reinforcenent, for a woman can always take pride in herself at any stage of life and wear what-the-hell she wants.
As a friend and fan of "Pebble in your Shoe," you are a really good, thinking person, and your thoughts enrich us, for which I always feel thankful.
Armando, 'wear what-the-hell she wants' might be my favorite thing anyone's said to me all week. Thank you for this — and for Nancy, lucky woman, 55 years running.
The best and funniest part for me is when I get in our new spa pool...naked, of course...and my girls float up into the air. Hubby and I crack up every night to see this. He's going to take a photo one night to put in my time capsule!! At 84, I no longer worry about anything related to my body. I'm just happy my brain and my smile still work.
Yes, love that attitude, and I'm happy for everything still works relatively speaking. Glad your girls will make the time capsule and be commemorated for all time!
They hadn’t packed up and left yet, but they were definitely considering a new location further south.
Mine have moved to Argentina….
I have a long torso which really (at least in my mind) accentuates the sag. I remind me of my grandmother! And I had a nice rack back in the day, if I do say so myself.
I too need to go easier on my body criticism. Lately, I’ve been delaying a trip to the hairdresser for my usual color job. The gray is definitely showing but I am thinking I may just let it. Gray will go with the wrinkles I gained when l lost the weight. I used to do Botox and get blowouts and, every six weeks cut and color my hair back when I was working. God forbid I look old in the workplace. Now I typically pull my hair back in a low pony to get it out of the way and hardly ever wear make up. I mostly just don’t care until I meet a really polished older woman, which I did last night at mahjong (yep, I play that old lady game lol). She was gorgeous, stylish, and gray and made me long to look that way myself.
I love not caring but instead dwelling on the deeper level within and with others. Yes, it's always impressive when one can play the game with style. But its the wisdom a woman has gained about her core and its capacity to care about creativity and consciousness-raising that is so incredibly beautiful.
Argentina! Ha ha! Now I wish I had said South Pole. I think you're on a journey like all of us and I'm here for it 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼. When I let my hair go gray, I did gray blending where they weave the color in between the gray and this way as it grows out you don't look like you have a white streak running down your head. I LOVE not going spending so much time and $$$ at the hairdressers to get my color done.
My mom had a white streak that was just like Anne Bancroft's. It was so elegant. Now my white is coming in slowly integrating with my dark hair. I've gotten $25 haircuts for the last 18 years. I only let a gal talk me into streaks 20 years ago and I looked like a colorful zebra and two days later demanded she give me back my (boring) bowing hair. Her accent made it sound like bowing hair. Oh the standards we think we have to uphold. So, not necessary and if they are, then what's it really all about?
Exactly! Well said. I'm so glad to have embraced my white hair pre-pandemic. I did not panic when the salons closed. I am thrilled not to have fork over oodles of money to spend hours waiting in a salon. Those days are over and I'm ecstatic to be au naturel. I have gotten many compliments on the color...way more than i ever got when I was coloring.
Your hair is gorgeous. Truly. My Grandma Pearl turned a battle axe grey at first with a line at her neck that remained dark. Then she was all white. I don't know why we can't claim every scar. I don't know why who we really are is not acceptable. It is an ad for our soul's path and our personality's reckoning. But we have to ignore all of that and compete amongst ourselves for what? For men? The kind of man that wants a Barbie doll? Is he a perfect Ken? Cher has had lots to say about how women can create anything they want and need and men are lovely desserts but little more than that. Au naturel is the best. Our time shouldn't be slaving competing amongst ourselves but naturally exuding our unique appeal.
Oh my gosh, I love this so much... Have you been picking my brain? While this post makes me chuckle, its truth is weighty. Yesterday I cleaned out my bra and panty drawer; it was a task I've put off for too long. The boobs, belly, and butt phenom I call it - is startling in how all the parts shift, grow, and look so foreign. And I haven't even mentioned the neck!
There are so many lines I could quote here, but these two: "Plenty of women carry water for the patriarchy. Some days I suspect I've been volunteering." Phew.
I could easily give up bras if those little nipple bumps calmed themselves down. Why do they bother me? It's like I'm wearing a sign "Ooo look at me! My boobs are loose!" But then there's the hot humid weather right now. Skin on skin is just a sweaty as a bra making my boobs hot. I need a sweat soaker tucked underneath. My grandma had boobs hanging down to her waist. I remember staring at them when I was a little kid, marveling at their length. She was like that while out in her vegetable garden in the intense heat and humidity of Iowa summers. She lived alone so she probably didn't give a shit what anyone thought. Go Grandma!
I’m all for giving credit to grandma! You go girl!!!! I imagine they didn’t have mammography back in her day, and could you imagine if she had to put those babies in the squash machine?
I do feel for you, Cindy, and your hot boobs. Maybe you could put the Nippies in the freezer? Just trying to think outside the box for you, my friend.
At 77, with large breasts, men still look!! I don’t get it, I am white headed, wrinkled, and what about my girls is fascinating? No bra is not an option, because just my cleavage drives men wild🫣
Sigh...these are the things. We are fighting against a powerful culture where youth is everything. It's so freakin' hard. I have memories of my grandmother accompanying us on vacations when I was a kid. She was very pale and quite overweight. But my memory of her is of her smile and laughter, lying out by the pool, seemingly unconcerned about her appearance. I've always wanted to be like that... but "don't get me started about my neck."
I love that she laid by the pool in all her glorious-ness. There are societies and eras where large ample-bodied women were revered. I hope for a time for my daughters and granddaughter where they can just be.
As someone who developed early in life- I was wearing a bra in 4th grade- my boobs have been a source of many emotions - shame, embarrassment, proud, etc. I might be the hardest judge of them stemming maybe from early looks, glances, comments etc that made me think that people only saw me below my neck. Needless to say I wore a lot of turtlenecks as a kid! I still find my thoughts creep in when I need to find an appropriate bra or see too much of my own cleavage. Ugh. And a spaghetti strapped shirt?! I don’t think I’ve ever wore one! 🫣🤣 At 58 I’m really working on accepting the aging parts and embracing my body for the strong, wonderful things it can do! Great post Ilona!
What would it have been like if our body parts were just our body parts without any judgment attached. What a different life I would have led without the worry, angst, fear, and everything you named. I'm doing the same work as you and I hope one day I will just accept and be grateful for all the body's wonders.
Yep, I had a bra in the 4th grade too. I had a breast reduction when I was 17 and what they removed just grew back. We are what we are. But we are so much more than what we are expected to achieve as a standard for appropriatenss instead of inventiveness or creative expression.
interesting, I've thought about a reduction but never have done it. 10 years ago I lost weight and with that, lost the boobs! then menopause and now like you said, they grew back. ugh. We are what we are. I've embraced it (mostly!).
Yeah, I can judge myself into oblivion and that's not fair. I've never wanted to compete, never liked it, and really like life when I live it the way I want to live it, not necessarily the way others say I should live it or the world at large prefers for me to remain small, quiet, not to be a pushy broad with big opinions. This last year my paternal grandmother came through and told me I came out kicking and screaming and I should keep kicking and screaming. I said, "But my mom always told me I was a calm and quiet baby." Grandma Pearl said, "That's how they wanted you to be. They figured if they said it enough, you would acquiesce." I never did. But I did kind of wait it out.... waited for this time.... and the freedom is glorious not to have to play the games that were necessary to keep the peace for most of the time.
And regarding body work, I much prefer massage to nipping and tucking. I am what I am. The agony of recuperation, oh no, yuck. Let me have every one of these days with the freedom to be me, as I am, as I want, and as I need. I need to look into your adventures!
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History. I've got the magnet on my fridge. When I studied massage I realized massage isn't a luxury as people are taught to believe. I had a body payment instead of a car payment and for two or three years after that when I was working at CBS Television City. I had a massage at my apartment every Friday. When either she or I couldn't do our Friday 8PM massage, if two or three weeks in a row went by without a massage, my bones would start to feel again as if they were a jail cell.
When I owned the hotel I finally got smart and thought, gee why don’t I do a massage as often as possible? The therapist was 2 steps away and I only paid her cost (not our hotel markup) haha. I get one every month still!
It does take some guts to begin the process of de-centering men out of our lives, in all the ways that work best for US, tyvm. I am working at wearing what I want to wear without thinking of the reception….but I’m well trained at 60 something over here…I’m incredibly grateful to be able to live a quiet, peaceful life without any 👀 or male bs; but ayoy. It is hard.
Together we can have the collective guts to dismantle patriarchal culture at least for ourselves. I always say this, but awareness is the first step. I want to be a good role model for my daughters and granddaughter, so if not for myself, then I do it for them.
“Funny how the weather was never the actual issue” is so accurate.
The weather is rarely the issue. The top is rarely the issue. The bra is rarely the issue.
It is the invisible panel discussion that starts in our heads before we even leave the house. Shoulders, neck, nipples, age, skin, appropriateness, dignity, all apparently invited without permission.
I loved the Nippies as a cease-fire. Not surrender. Not revolution. Just trying to wear the damn flamingo top with a little less negotiation.
“Funny how the weather was never the actual issue” is so accurate.
The weather is rarely the issue. The top is rarely the issue. The bra is rarely the issue.
It is the invisible panel discussion that starts in our heads before we even leave the house. Shoulders, neck, nipples, age, skin, appropriateness, dignity, all apparently invited without permission.
I loved the Nippies as a cease-fire. Not surrender. Not revolution. Just trying to wear the damn flamingo top with a little less negotiation.
What I want to know is why, when that man asked your husband whether you were wearing a bra, your husband didn’t throw him the fuck out of your house. I’m so glad I don’t consume any “content” about cosmetic surgery, etc. I have read only one article, and it’s the best thing I have ever read on the topic, and after reading it no sane woman should want to read anything else about it ever again.
https://substack.com/@fatherkarine/note/p-176521638?utm_source=notes-share-action&r=2gf6g1
Martha! This article is awesome! I only just read the first several paragraphs but now I want to sit with it and take my time. Thank you for sharing it and it is already helping.
Ilona Goanos: I hope to remain on the right of propriety when I say, the Pictures of you on this platform show an engaging, pleasant woman. You have no reason to worry about yours looks at all.
In 53 years of marriage (55 together with Nancy), I am blessed with a woman of deep goodness, whom I trust implicitly, and whose beauty captivates me (makeup or no makeup and in any of her chosen clothes) like when we first met.
Nancy is still that full personality of the fragrant breath of fresh air that blew miraculously into my life, freeing me 55 years ago. Nature did not make me to be a single man.
As my wife has aged with me, she remains my whole Heart and Love, the more beautiful for her life's experiences.
If a man had made the disgusting, belittling physical remark your then-husband had reported, the one hearing about it would not have been my innocent Nancy, but his (the erstwhile "friend's) ears would be ringing from my admonishment of my well-loved wife's dignity and right to privacy. He would not have made the same mistake twice!
At all stages of life, a girl, a young woman, a maturing woman, a fertile woman, a woman going through cycles, a woman during and after changes, an older woman, and a quite aged woman -- A girl, a woman is a wondrous Work of Nature who is sovereign in her own Agency and Freedom, who does not have to answer to anyone about her choices in clothes or how she looks.
I am truly sorry you weren't surrounded by positive reinforcenent, for a woman can always take pride in herself at any stage of life and wear what-the-hell she wants.
As a friend and fan of "Pebble in your Shoe," you are a really good, thinking person, and your thoughts enrich us, for which I always feel thankful.
Armando, 'wear what-the-hell she wants' might be my favorite thing anyone's said to me all week. Thank you for this — and for Nancy, lucky woman, 55 years running.
The best and funniest part for me is when I get in our new spa pool...naked, of course...and my girls float up into the air. Hubby and I crack up every night to see this. He's going to take a photo one night to put in my time capsule!! At 84, I no longer worry about anything related to my body. I'm just happy my brain and my smile still work.
Yes, love that attitude, and I'm happy for everything still works relatively speaking. Glad your girls will make the time capsule and be commemorated for all time!
Oh god, I cackled at:
They hadn’t packed up and left yet, but they were definitely considering a new location further south.
Mine have moved to Argentina….
I have a long torso which really (at least in my mind) accentuates the sag. I remind me of my grandmother! And I had a nice rack back in the day, if I do say so myself.
I too need to go easier on my body criticism. Lately, I’ve been delaying a trip to the hairdresser for my usual color job. The gray is definitely showing but I am thinking I may just let it. Gray will go with the wrinkles I gained when l lost the weight. I used to do Botox and get blowouts and, every six weeks cut and color my hair back when I was working. God forbid I look old in the workplace. Now I typically pull my hair back in a low pony to get it out of the way and hardly ever wear make up. I mostly just don’t care until I meet a really polished older woman, which I did last night at mahjong (yep, I play that old lady game lol). She was gorgeous, stylish, and gray and made me long to look that way myself.
I love not caring but instead dwelling on the deeper level within and with others. Yes, it's always impressive when one can play the game with style. But its the wisdom a woman has gained about her core and its capacity to care about creativity and consciousness-raising that is so incredibly beautiful.
Yes to all this! Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Argentina! Ha ha! Now I wish I had said South Pole. I think you're on a journey like all of us and I'm here for it 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼. When I let my hair go gray, I did gray blending where they weave the color in between the gray and this way as it grows out you don't look like you have a white streak running down your head. I LOVE not going spending so much time and $$$ at the hairdressers to get my color done.
My mom had a white streak that was just like Anne Bancroft's. It was so elegant. Now my white is coming in slowly integrating with my dark hair. I've gotten $25 haircuts for the last 18 years. I only let a gal talk me into streaks 20 years ago and I looked like a colorful zebra and two days later demanded she give me back my (boring) bowing hair. Her accent made it sound like bowing hair. Oh the standards we think we have to uphold. So, not necessary and if they are, then what's it really all about?
Exactly! Well said. I'm so glad to have embraced my white hair pre-pandemic. I did not panic when the salons closed. I am thrilled not to have fork over oodles of money to spend hours waiting in a salon. Those days are over and I'm ecstatic to be au naturel. I have gotten many compliments on the color...way more than i ever got when I was coloring.
Your hair is gorgeous. Truly. My Grandma Pearl turned a battle axe grey at first with a line at her neck that remained dark. Then she was all white. I don't know why we can't claim every scar. I don't know why who we really are is not acceptable. It is an ad for our soul's path and our personality's reckoning. But we have to ignore all of that and compete amongst ourselves for what? For men? The kind of man that wants a Barbie doll? Is he a perfect Ken? Cher has had lots to say about how women can create anything they want and need and men are lovely desserts but little more than that. Au naturel is the best. Our time shouldn't be slaving competing amongst ourselves but naturally exuding our unique appeal.
Oh my gosh, I love this so much... Have you been picking my brain? While this post makes me chuckle, its truth is weighty. Yesterday I cleaned out my bra and panty drawer; it was a task I've put off for too long. The boobs, belly, and butt phenom I call it - is startling in how all the parts shift, grow, and look so foreign. And I haven't even mentioned the neck!
There are so many lines I could quote here, but these two: "Plenty of women carry water for the patriarchy. Some days I suspect I've been volunteering." Phew.
I suspect we are all carrying the water since its a cultural thing. Cleaning out the panty drawer is definitely underrated. Glad you enjoyed the read!
Yes!
I could easily give up bras if those little nipple bumps calmed themselves down. Why do they bother me? It's like I'm wearing a sign "Ooo look at me! My boobs are loose!" But then there's the hot humid weather right now. Skin on skin is just a sweaty as a bra making my boobs hot. I need a sweat soaker tucked underneath. My grandma had boobs hanging down to her waist. I remember staring at them when I was a little kid, marveling at their length. She was like that while out in her vegetable garden in the intense heat and humidity of Iowa summers. She lived alone so she probably didn't give a shit what anyone thought. Go Grandma!
I’m all for giving credit to grandma! You go girl!!!! I imagine they didn’t have mammography back in her day, and could you imagine if she had to put those babies in the squash machine?
I do feel for you, Cindy, and your hot boobs. Maybe you could put the Nippies in the freezer? Just trying to think outside the box for you, my friend.
Ice pack on the girls while I relax in the recliner. Fans and AC blowing. Books and a margarita within easy reach. Sounds like doctor's orders to me!
At 77, with large breasts, men still look!! I don’t get it, I am white headed, wrinkled, and what about my girls is fascinating? No bra is not an option, because just my cleavage drives men wild🫣
Dixie, 77 and still stopping traffic — I don't think that ever fully retires, does it? Keep being you.❤️
Giggle!! Thank you!
Sigh...these are the things. We are fighting against a powerful culture where youth is everything. It's so freakin' hard. I have memories of my grandmother accompanying us on vacations when I was a kid. She was very pale and quite overweight. But my memory of her is of her smile and laughter, lying out by the pool, seemingly unconcerned about her appearance. I've always wanted to be like that... but "don't get me started about my neck."
I love that she laid by the pool in all her glorious-ness. There are societies and eras where large ample-bodied women were revered. I hope for a time for my daughters and granddaughter where they can just be.
As someone who developed early in life- I was wearing a bra in 4th grade- my boobs have been a source of many emotions - shame, embarrassment, proud, etc. I might be the hardest judge of them stemming maybe from early looks, glances, comments etc that made me think that people only saw me below my neck. Needless to say I wore a lot of turtlenecks as a kid! I still find my thoughts creep in when I need to find an appropriate bra or see too much of my own cleavage. Ugh. And a spaghetti strapped shirt?! I don’t think I’ve ever wore one! 🫣🤣 At 58 I’m really working on accepting the aging parts and embracing my body for the strong, wonderful things it can do! Great post Ilona!
What would it have been like if our body parts were just our body parts without any judgment attached. What a different life I would have led without the worry, angst, fear, and everything you named. I'm doing the same work as you and I hope one day I will just accept and be grateful for all the body's wonders.
Amén! I found this beautiful thing about our bodies and I’ll see if I can attach it or sent it to you
Yep, I had a bra in the 4th grade too. I had a breast reduction when I was 17 and what they removed just grew back. We are what we are. But we are so much more than what we are expected to achieve as a standard for appropriatenss instead of inventiveness or creative expression.
interesting, I've thought about a reduction but never have done it. 10 years ago I lost weight and with that, lost the boobs! then menopause and now like you said, they grew back. ugh. We are what we are. I've embraced it (mostly!).
The old lady bulges are never where we want them. Maybe that thinking is what we were taught by the patriarchy. I yam what I yam!
Yeah, I can judge myself into oblivion and that's not fair. I've never wanted to compete, never liked it, and really like life when I live it the way I want to live it, not necessarily the way others say I should live it or the world at large prefers for me to remain small, quiet, not to be a pushy broad with big opinions. This last year my paternal grandmother came through and told me I came out kicking and screaming and I should keep kicking and screaming. I said, "But my mom always told me I was a calm and quiet baby." Grandma Pearl said, "That's how they wanted you to be. They figured if they said it enough, you would acquiesce." I never did. But I did kind of wait it out.... waited for this time.... and the freedom is glorious not to have to play the games that were necessary to keep the peace for most of the time.
And regarding body work, I much prefer massage to nipping and tucking. I am what I am. The agony of recuperation, oh no, yuck. Let me have every one of these days with the freedom to be me, as I am, as I want, and as I need. I need to look into your adventures!
What's the phrase...obedient women never make history? I see. you somewhere in there. Yes, massage is awesome! I would have one every day if i could.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History. I've got the magnet on my fridge. When I studied massage I realized massage isn't a luxury as people are taught to believe. I had a body payment instead of a car payment and for two or three years after that when I was working at CBS Television City. I had a massage at my apartment every Friday. When either she or I couldn't do our Friday 8PM massage, if two or three weeks in a row went by without a massage, my bones would start to feel again as if they were a jail cell.
When I owned the hotel I finally got smart and thought, gee why don’t I do a massage as often as possible? The therapist was 2 steps away and I only paid her cost (not our hotel markup) haha. I get one every month still!
Amen to all that! The freedom to be me as I am and need to be! Amen.
And I hope your Grandma Pearl was right-kick and scream the way YOU want!
It does take some guts to begin the process of de-centering men out of our lives, in all the ways that work best for US, tyvm. I am working at wearing what I want to wear without thinking of the reception….but I’m well trained at 60 something over here…I’m incredibly grateful to be able to live a quiet, peaceful life without any 👀 or male bs; but ayoy. It is hard.
Together we can have the collective guts to dismantle patriarchal culture at least for ourselves. I always say this, but awareness is the first step. I want to be a good role model for my daughters and granddaughter, so if not for myself, then I do it for them.
Thank you for the mention, and for this refreshing honest piece!
Thanks for reading, Skylar! I appreciate the work you do in this space.
“Funny how the weather was never the actual issue” is so accurate.
The weather is rarely the issue. The top is rarely the issue. The bra is rarely the issue.
It is the invisible panel discussion that starts in our heads before we even leave the house. Shoulders, neck, nipples, age, skin, appropriateness, dignity, all apparently invited without permission.
I loved the Nippies as a cease-fire. Not surrender. Not revolution. Just trying to wear the damn flamingo top with a little less negotiation.
“Funny how the weather was never the actual issue” is so accurate.
The weather is rarely the issue. The top is rarely the issue. The bra is rarely the issue.
It is the invisible panel discussion that starts in our heads before we even leave the house. Shoulders, neck, nipples, age, skin, appropriateness, dignity, all apparently invited without permission.
I loved the Nippies as a cease-fire. Not surrender. Not revolution. Just trying to wear the damn flamingo top with a little less negotiation.
Thanks for your insight into this issue. It’s definitely a whole thing before the top is ever worn.