Similar stories here of creeps- I always thought it was because my breasts grew ‘early’ and my teen self was ‘womanly’ back then. I also didn’t know really how to speak up against weird advances. I know now that some men are creepy, disrespectful and I, like you, had hoped for a better world for my daughter. I am glad women of today speak up, and the #metoo and others has brought more awareness! Thanks for sharing. (I’d still maybe not want to face the bear!)
I know how you feel because I used to think that the things that happened were my fault, although unlike you, I was a late bloomer. I did feel embarrassment and/or shame writing this, but I keep telling myself that I didn't do anything to deserve the lascivious treatment. I think staying silent is not instrumental in ending this behavior. Thanks for your comment, Marlo!
So right there with you! Thought it was ‘my fault’ for growing early- but I am of same generation as you (I’m 56) and I think that’s what we were told. And yes staying silent is what took us women so long to get to the #metoo or whatever so speak up sister- we got your back!
Ilona Goanos: The bear has the tremendous advantage of endearing, doglike features.
On the evolutionary line of predators, there are two main lines, felidae (lions, tigers, lynxes, housecats) and canidae (bears are in a line that broke off earlier in evolution that later lead to canines, the wolf, the house pet).
So, the dog and bear are closely related enough that we see a bit of our retriever or Labrador in the bear.
So, what endearing feature do we see in the man?! DJT?! The January-6th Shaman with his bullhorns?
Compare with the bear, with his endearing doglike muzzle.
And a bear is easier to escape.
Usually, a she-bear is protecting her cubs. SOMEHOW back up and remain calm and ULTIMATELY, after hair-raising moments, she will see her cubs are safe, and she will grumble and back out.
Also, if you are on a slope, run DOWNHILL.
Uphill, the bear has a tremendous advantage!
Downhill, the upper-body weight of the bear makes its downhill trample awkward as the bear lumbers to stabilize her leap.
The bear looks like our dog and acts out of honest motives.
A man:: Has neither advantage.
Full disclosure: I am a white, 76-year-old man, married 51-years to the LOVE-OF-MY-LIFE, the beautiful Nancy, whom I have loved for 53-years, with two daughters, a granddaughter, and my granddaughter's cats. I have been SHOCKED, SHOCKED, SHOCKED at the terrifying statistics (1 in 4?!?!) for abuse of women and girls, when I love the girls and women who are my family members and who are my friends. I have pondered whether the best is not the love of a woman FOR a woman, and am certainly OPEN to THAT idea! Another Substack featured work of Audre Lorde today, who determined to overcome blindness and racial oppression through her WONDROUS poetry, and, who loved a woman. Audre Lorde is a MAGNIFICENT WOMAN (whom we lost way to early in life in 1992 to cruel cancer).
Yes to everything you said, Armand! I feel a bear could be reasoned with if I left the cubs alone, and thank you for the beautiful lesson on wildlife. I read the poem by Audre Lord you linked and it made me cry. What tragic heart-rending images she created with her words and the way she wove the two stories (or one?) of white women and black men together. Thank you so much for sharing.
Ilona Goanos: "The Poetic Outlaws" had awakened me this morning to look deeper, through the Poetry Foundation, to Audre Lorde with the "Poetic Outlaws" posting here:
Two works struck me from my youth: A woman professor of English in my sophomore year of college (on whom I had a HUGE, innocent, boyhood CRUSH -- my heart would BEAT) introduced me to the Bhagavad Gita in the Penguin Juan Mascaro translation:
I read substantially all of the Greek classics (in English translations) and (in the German translations of Swetlana Geier -- native speaker of Russian AND German) of ALL of the work of Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky.
But the pivots and anchors in my literary studies are the Bhagavad Gita and the original, 1855 Leaves of Grass, which is full of life and youthful vigor.
And Audre Lorde speaks to you and to me very deeply in her poetry. Oh, how sorrowful to lose her so youthful in 1992! What a wonderful, full soul!
The really fucking sad thing, the truly horrifying reality...is that, in either scenario, getting killed is a possible outcome...and a woman would be regarded as little more than a piece of meat to be..."consumed"...
I don't know how it is where you live, Mark, but in the US, women are losing rights, not gaining them. Maybe in Europe things are better? Yes, we are regarded as meat and and our role is to produce offspring. Thanks for bringing your perspective here.
No, it's also horrible in Spain. There's a long history of women being abused and murdered by husbands and boyfriends...and during the Franco dictatorship it was even worse...And then there are the centuries of truly evil fuckery associated with the Catholic Church...As far as I can tell, misogyny is still a huge global problem...
Well, this was an interesting question...but not prepared for the reality in the answer. The guys I hung out with would have agreed that the appropriate action in these circumstances would warrant beating their a**. Some things demand a politically incorrect response.
I've actually had experiences with these type of men. I can't tell you how many times I've been with my better half and gotten up to go to the bathroom. Guess who comes over to the table almost immediately – one of these douche bags. I would call them out every time I came back. Sometimes I even had to find them ha ha. They would quickly apologize and I'm not a tough guy, but you gotta draw the line sometime.
I agree with your politically incorrect response. With this substrate, you have to sink to a level they understand to get a corrective course of action. Often a woman has to say she's got a boyfriend or a husband to get them to leave her alone. It's miserable to have to claim to be the property of another for them to give up. Thanks for such a thoughtful response, Phil.
I have experienced similar situations like yours throughout my life as well. It has affected me in ways I am still trying to grapple with in my 60s. Unfrickin believable, right?
I have to say, the man, but I would arm myself with a stick or a rock and beat the heck out of him, (if warranted) for all those past instances of sexual harassment, unwanted advances and repressed anger.
What if you had a can of bear spray? If you read the comment from Armand, the bear is the way to go. Yes it is unfrickin believable to be this old and still have the issue. Thanks for your support, Michelle!
Bear spray, a good idea. Although my choice and subsequent action regarding the man is a bit violent and out of character for me in reality, I still might prefer it. I could still use the bear spray. 😏
Yeah, until #MeToo, I didn't even count all those creepy experiences, only the actual assaults. It sort of helps to read your list of just those early ones. And yes, it continues into older age. How many times did contractors stay behind after the rest of the crew left, sidle toward me, and say "Do you ever feel you're married to the wrong person?" Yeah, these were married guys whose wives I knew, and they knew I was married. As for bears, Ilona, I recently attended a workshop on bears. So many people - often men - are terrified of them. The one thing. you NEVER do, though, is run. You raise your hands up, possibly with a backpack or jacket to make yourself bigger, stand your ground and talk. If they need an escape route, try to make one available. Black bears, the ones that occur here, are afraid of people. Hiking, I've run into bears with cubs, and I'm between the mother and the cubs, and they take off running. I live in a remote rural area with all kinds of large wildlife - cougars, Roosevelt elk, bears, and people always ask "Aren't you afraid in the forest?" And I always say, "Nothing in the forest frightens me. It's people who scare me." And that's based on experiences jut like the ones you list.
Thanks for the advice on handling bears. My instinct would be to run. Your words make me feel empowered and that I could handle the situation if it arose. Regarding the men, my desire is to gather the courage to call them out on their bullshit. I'm just so damn tired of it.
I am with you on the desire to gather courage to call bullshit. As I walked this morning, talking out loud with the strong women ancestors, birds, trees, my dog, I saw how I'd wrapped myself around bad behavior from birth onward, trying to soften it. I was so good at it, and society so enables that behavior in girls and women, I just kept doing it. And then sometime in the past eight years, I hit bottom. I admitted my powerlessness over my lifetime responses. "I will never again let someone treat me rudely or disrespectfully," I said. "Help me goddesses." That doesn't mean, as I once thought it did, getting in some guy's face. For me it's quiet and gentle, asking for guidance, and perhaps saying quietly, "Wow, that hurts", or "I would like to be talked to with love and respect." It's a daily practice!
Surprisingly, this topic was brought up today at lunch by a friend who was inappropriately touched as well. We talked about our own inability to take action at the moment of the violation. I realized I am filled with rage at my powerlessness. I like how you reframed it with a different approach. I'm going to try quiet and gentle supplication as you suggest. Nothing I've thought of has worked. Thanks for your wisdsom, Kirie.
As a mom of two boys, I had many talks with them about my experiences—carrying my keys sticking out between my fingers so I could “slice” at an unwanted advance, positioning myself in line of sight with others on public transit, taking a “long way” to stay on well lit/populated paths, sitting near other women/families on public transit—modeling appropriate behavior and conversations with others, and generally raising them not just be good humans, but a safe ally (is that the right way to say it) for women and anyone else. Everyone deserves the right to be safe. Thank you for sharing your story.
The way you raised your boys is wonderful. I've never had that talk with my son and somehow he's turned out to be a sensitive and remarkable man without me even trying, but I think I will bring this issue up now. You did us all a service by raising their awareness. I don't think I was aware myself at how much fear I lived in until recently, and especially when I took the time to write down all the things that happened to me before I turned 25. Thanks for your comment!
Unfortunately, I can relate. I have so many memories...a gang rape...several doctors...several pastors...times I was hitchhiking (I know...dumb)...abusive romantic relationships (abuse and romance...an oxymoron). Here's where I'm at with it all...even after thirty years of marriage to a wonderful man. I won't drive outside of a city. I won't hike outside of a well-populated area. I feel fear when a man walks toward me on a sidewalk. There was a time when I would walk into a crowded public place and wonder how many of the men in the establishment were rapists and murderers. I'm sure I will feel these fears until I die.
You have endured so much, and are suffering to this day from all the horrible things that have happened to you at the hands of men. I wish it weren't this way, my friend. You have my heartfelt compassion and rightful rage.
Similar stories here of creeps- I always thought it was because my breasts grew ‘early’ and my teen self was ‘womanly’ back then. I also didn’t know really how to speak up against weird advances. I know now that some men are creepy, disrespectful and I, like you, had hoped for a better world for my daughter. I am glad women of today speak up, and the #metoo and others has brought more awareness! Thanks for sharing. (I’d still maybe not want to face the bear!)
I know how you feel because I used to think that the things that happened were my fault, although unlike you, I was a late bloomer. I did feel embarrassment and/or shame writing this, but I keep telling myself that I didn't do anything to deserve the lascivious treatment. I think staying silent is not instrumental in ending this behavior. Thanks for your comment, Marlo!
So right there with you! Thought it was ‘my fault’ for growing early- but I am of same generation as you (I’m 56) and I think that’s what we were told. And yes staying silent is what took us women so long to get to the #metoo or whatever so speak up sister- we got your back!
❤️ ❤️ ❤️
Ilona Goanos: The bear has the tremendous advantage of endearing, doglike features.
On the evolutionary line of predators, there are two main lines, felidae (lions, tigers, lynxes, housecats) and canidae (bears are in a line that broke off earlier in evolution that later lead to canines, the wolf, the house pet).
So, the dog and bear are closely related enough that we see a bit of our retriever or Labrador in the bear.
So, what endearing feature do we see in the man?! DJT?! The January-6th Shaman with his bullhorns?
Compare with the bear, with his endearing doglike muzzle.
And a bear is easier to escape.
Usually, a she-bear is protecting her cubs. SOMEHOW back up and remain calm and ULTIMATELY, after hair-raising moments, she will see her cubs are safe, and she will grumble and back out.
Also, if you are on a slope, run DOWNHILL.
Uphill, the bear has a tremendous advantage!
Downhill, the upper-body weight of the bear makes its downhill trample awkward as the bear lumbers to stabilize her leap.
The bear looks like our dog and acts out of honest motives.
A man:: Has neither advantage.
Full disclosure: I am a white, 76-year-old man, married 51-years to the LOVE-OF-MY-LIFE, the beautiful Nancy, whom I have loved for 53-years, with two daughters, a granddaughter, and my granddaughter's cats. I have been SHOCKED, SHOCKED, SHOCKED at the terrifying statistics (1 in 4?!?!) for abuse of women and girls, when I love the girls and women who are my family members and who are my friends. I have pondered whether the best is not the love of a woman FOR a woman, and am certainly OPEN to THAT idea! Another Substack featured work of Audre Lorde today, who determined to overcome blindness and racial oppression through her WONDROUS poetry, and, who loved a woman. Audre Lorde is a MAGNIFICENT WOMAN (whom we lost way to early in life in 1992 to cruel cancer).
Read the wondrous work of Audre Lorde here:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/audre-lorde
And here is Audre Lorde's "Afterimages" in her magnificent PASSION:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42582/afterimages
For me the decision IS EASY: By and large, I thrive happy and sound among wildlife.
Yes to everything you said, Armand! I feel a bear could be reasoned with if I left the cubs alone, and thank you for the beautiful lesson on wildlife. I read the poem by Audre Lord you linked and it made me cry. What tragic heart-rending images she created with her words and the way she wove the two stories (or one?) of white women and black men together. Thank you so much for sharing.
Ilona Goanos: "The Poetic Outlaws" had awakened me this morning to look deeper, through the Poetry Foundation, to Audre Lorde with the "Poetic Outlaws" posting here:
https://poeticoutlaws.substack.com/p/a-litany-for-survival
The Poetry Foundation has linked me to countless works that reach deep in the soul here:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpNuyBhCuARIsANJqL9PhWjGk5ps7YBYhn_q-21Dm-S7gisf4gkxJJZtWpQ9dqeENrDYdb-UaAq_HEALw_wcB
Two works struck me from my youth: A woman professor of English in my sophomore year of college (on whom I had a HUGE, innocent, boyhood CRUSH -- my heart would BEAT) introduced me to the Bhagavad Gita in the Penguin Juan Mascaro translation:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31825386020&dest=usa&ref_=ps_ggl_18382194370&cm_mmc=ggl-_-US_Shopp_Trade0to10-_-product_id=COM9780140441215USED-_-keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpNuyBhCuARIsANJqL9OpITXETaHllZk0P41ykomWGFlb-qmQk_6jfWukALoYOLVSBQzHwNgaAltXEALw_wcB
AND the 1855 (First Edition) of "Leaves of Grass" by Walt Whitman, which I have downloaded on my iPad with GOOGLE-PLAY here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=9U1gZi-O3dEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Walt+Whitman+1855&hl=de&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQ2bLwgrOGAxXVG9AFHRdHCcUQ6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=Walt%20Whitman%201855&f=false
I read substantially all of the Greek classics (in English translations) and (in the German translations of Swetlana Geier -- native speaker of Russian AND German) of ALL of the work of Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky.
But the pivots and anchors in my literary studies are the Bhagavad Gita and the original, 1855 Leaves of Grass, which is full of life and youthful vigor.
And Audre Lorde speaks to you and to me very deeply in her poetry. Oh, how sorrowful to lose her so youthful in 1992! What a wonderful, full soul!
The really fucking sad thing, the truly horrifying reality...is that, in either scenario, getting killed is a possible outcome...and a woman would be regarded as little more than a piece of meat to be..."consumed"...
I don't know how it is where you live, Mark, but in the US, women are losing rights, not gaining them. Maybe in Europe things are better? Yes, we are regarded as meat and and our role is to produce offspring. Thanks for bringing your perspective here.
No, it's also horrible in Spain. There's a long history of women being abused and murdered by husbands and boyfriends...and during the Franco dictatorship it was even worse...And then there are the centuries of truly evil fuckery associated with the Catholic Church...As far as I can tell, misogyny is still a huge global problem...
That's unfortunatel that I can't locate a place where it's better. Don't get me started on the evil committed on behalf of the CC.
Well, this was an interesting question...but not prepared for the reality in the answer. The guys I hung out with would have agreed that the appropriate action in these circumstances would warrant beating their a**. Some things demand a politically incorrect response.
I've actually had experiences with these type of men. I can't tell you how many times I've been with my better half and gotten up to go to the bathroom. Guess who comes over to the table almost immediately – one of these douche bags. I would call them out every time I came back. Sometimes I even had to find them ha ha. They would quickly apologize and I'm not a tough guy, but you gotta draw the line sometime.
I agree with your politically incorrect response. With this substrate, you have to sink to a level they understand to get a corrective course of action. Often a woman has to say she's got a boyfriend or a husband to get them to leave her alone. It's miserable to have to claim to be the property of another for them to give up. Thanks for such a thoughtful response, Phil.
I have experienced similar situations like yours throughout my life as well. It has affected me in ways I am still trying to grapple with in my 60s. Unfrickin believable, right?
I have to say, the man, but I would arm myself with a stick or a rock and beat the heck out of him, (if warranted) for all those past instances of sexual harassment, unwanted advances and repressed anger.
What if you had a can of bear spray? If you read the comment from Armand, the bear is the way to go. Yes it is unfrickin believable to be this old and still have the issue. Thanks for your support, Michelle!
Bear spray, a good idea. Although my choice and subsequent action regarding the man is a bit violent and out of character for me in reality, I still might prefer it. I could still use the bear spray. 😏
Yeah, until #MeToo, I didn't even count all those creepy experiences, only the actual assaults. It sort of helps to read your list of just those early ones. And yes, it continues into older age. How many times did contractors stay behind after the rest of the crew left, sidle toward me, and say "Do you ever feel you're married to the wrong person?" Yeah, these were married guys whose wives I knew, and they knew I was married. As for bears, Ilona, I recently attended a workshop on bears. So many people - often men - are terrified of them. The one thing. you NEVER do, though, is run. You raise your hands up, possibly with a backpack or jacket to make yourself bigger, stand your ground and talk. If they need an escape route, try to make one available. Black bears, the ones that occur here, are afraid of people. Hiking, I've run into bears with cubs, and I'm between the mother and the cubs, and they take off running. I live in a remote rural area with all kinds of large wildlife - cougars, Roosevelt elk, bears, and people always ask "Aren't you afraid in the forest?" And I always say, "Nothing in the forest frightens me. It's people who scare me." And that's based on experiences jut like the ones you list.
Thanks for the advice on handling bears. My instinct would be to run. Your words make me feel empowered and that I could handle the situation if it arose. Regarding the men, my desire is to gather the courage to call them out on their bullshit. I'm just so damn tired of it.
I am with you on the desire to gather courage to call bullshit. As I walked this morning, talking out loud with the strong women ancestors, birds, trees, my dog, I saw how I'd wrapped myself around bad behavior from birth onward, trying to soften it. I was so good at it, and society so enables that behavior in girls and women, I just kept doing it. And then sometime in the past eight years, I hit bottom. I admitted my powerlessness over my lifetime responses. "I will never again let someone treat me rudely or disrespectfully," I said. "Help me goddesses." That doesn't mean, as I once thought it did, getting in some guy's face. For me it's quiet and gentle, asking for guidance, and perhaps saying quietly, "Wow, that hurts", or "I would like to be talked to with love and respect." It's a daily practice!
Surprisingly, this topic was brought up today at lunch by a friend who was inappropriately touched as well. We talked about our own inability to take action at the moment of the violation. I realized I am filled with rage at my powerlessness. I like how you reframed it with a different approach. I'm going to try quiet and gentle supplication as you suggest. Nothing I've thought of has worked. Thanks for your wisdsom, Kirie.
As a mom of two boys, I had many talks with them about my experiences—carrying my keys sticking out between my fingers so I could “slice” at an unwanted advance, positioning myself in line of sight with others on public transit, taking a “long way” to stay on well lit/populated paths, sitting near other women/families on public transit—modeling appropriate behavior and conversations with others, and generally raising them not just be good humans, but a safe ally (is that the right way to say it) for women and anyone else. Everyone deserves the right to be safe. Thank you for sharing your story.
The way you raised your boys is wonderful. I've never had that talk with my son and somehow he's turned out to be a sensitive and remarkable man without me even trying, but I think I will bring this issue up now. You did us all a service by raising their awareness. I don't think I was aware myself at how much fear I lived in until recently, and especially when I took the time to write down all the things that happened to me before I turned 25. Thanks for your comment!
Wow, Ilona - what a question! I really had to think about it as I read your story. Yup, I think I would chose the bear. Sigh!
I wish it weren't so, but I certainly understand. Thanks for commenting, Cherie.
Unfortunately, I can relate. I have so many memories...a gang rape...several doctors...several pastors...times I was hitchhiking (I know...dumb)...abusive romantic relationships (abuse and romance...an oxymoron). Here's where I'm at with it all...even after thirty years of marriage to a wonderful man. I won't drive outside of a city. I won't hike outside of a well-populated area. I feel fear when a man walks toward me on a sidewalk. There was a time when I would walk into a crowded public place and wonder how many of the men in the establishment were rapists and murderers. I'm sure I will feel these fears until I die.
You have endured so much, and are suffering to this day from all the horrible things that have happened to you at the hands of men. I wish it weren't this way, my friend. You have my heartfelt compassion and rightful rage.
Thank you, Ilona. I know I am just one of thousands over the centuries. I don't let it get to me.
This whole debate is making me think of Canadian author Marian Engel's novel "Bear", which is about a woman who loves bears. (Literally!).
Oh my! I just looked up what that book is about as I had never heard of it. Sounds like an interesting read.